Camping and Sub Spamming need attention for the season

[TDNConvict]

I feel that the rules for sub spamming and camping need to be looked at before the season starts
Me and Silverwing strongly disagree on exactly how the rules should be enforced. I feel that if we are going to be micro managing teams/players and handing out forfeit wins for stupid shit I am considering removing myself as admin and player for the season.

Here are the rules in question
Camping:
Shooting from any vantage position at enemy players where the said player is not likely to be seen or a shot is not likely to be returned by the enemy player.

Defenders:
A defender excessively defending from any vantage point will be considered to be camping.
A defender must be defending from a position of which they can be engaged.
If a defender is not following the above or there is a complaint during a match, the above can be challenged and deemed by an admin.

Attackers:
An attacker excessively camping/dming from any vantage point where they are shooting at enemy players without being engaged themselves will be considered to be camping.
If an attacker is not following the above or there is a complaint during a match, the above can be challenged and deemed by an admin. Should there be a case where a player/team was camping excessively, demos will be used to penalise the offending player/team.


RESPONSE

I find it comical that admins will be telling players where they can defend from - the perfect example for both sub spamming and camping is clarion - when your team has a booster and the other doesn't it’s going to be a huge advantage - if you are the defender on the team with the booster you still need someone to defend it - I feel you should be allowed to defend the booster and still be able to shoot across the map at the other team - apparently according to Silverwing you have to just stand in your base and play with your dick while your team attacks

Also if you nuke the shit out of the enemy base to the point that nothing is left other than supplier and super container apparently you can't shoot at people in the supplier.... instead of having rules that will take away hard fought wins from teams we should increase the spawn protection if people in this league are so bad they can’t get in and out of the supplier quickly.

Remember these are matches - in my opinion if you can't defend the supplier or shoot someone with sniper across the map you have no business winning anything

A second example - blackriver - when you have a tele and nobody is attacking your base should you make defenders stay in your base and do nothing for 20 mins.. I feel that you should be allowed to defend your base and the tele high while you stand on the mountain

I can see how it can be lame and camping can be annoying especially in maps like face but honestly are we going to tell defenders how to play now ... we might as well make red circles saying "defend here" in the open where you can easily get picked off... yea that sounds like a lot of fun


A lot of this doesn't apply to me being a mainly offensive player but I still feel strongly about it - this post is simply to see how people feel - I'm not saying go wild with spawn killing and crouching in a corner but I think there should be some discussion about itIf I had my way they both would be completely allowed ... but maybe we can come to some kind of middle ground with this topic because I can tell you right now i'm not voting to dq any team for either –

PROPOSAL

I propose that we modify the camping rule so that you simply cannot crouch but defenders can defend from places like the towers on clarion or the mountains on blackriver
As for camping – should not be allowed as long as there are sufficient building to shoot at. In the event there are no building visible you should go after players first however if from your vantage the only players to shoot are in the supplier it should be allowed

Also in maps that are clearly bugged that you can shoot from but can't be hit... obviously that shouldn't be allowed - need to go through maplist and iron out those situations.. minicivil maybe? i don't know them all

[TDNConvict]

.

[SilverWing]

Camping its allowed. For example Clarion your not allowed to stand on the Huts or the two Towers and shot across the map. That not defending, its called being a camper faggot. Also you cant just stand on the side of the enemy base and pop heads of without a reason, like cover your team while they are hitting the core then you can pop heads in the supplier. Another example Blackriver, if you make a teleporter on the top, you can't shoot people who are on the ground, unless they are getting boosted up or at the top with you. No one like campers, its hasn't been allowed for years. Why bring it back now? Honestly do you want to see me camping and kill everyone i see? They wouldn't even get into the base is i did that.


Sup Spamming, the most lamest thing you could ever do. Why do you think placing a rocketbomb isnt legal. Let me sup spam for no reason.


Stop allowing stupid shit, we are trying to make this tournament fun. Not a game of who can be the biggest dick by camping and sup spamming.

[TDNConvict]

clearly we disagree - didn't make this post for us to go over same things over and over.. was for everyone else to comment

[kron]

Keep the rules as they are.
I don't want to make rule changes right before we start a tournament.

[|uK|Rays]

I'll just put down what I think of the two:

Camping: Pretty simple for me, I just think that camping is when you stay like right on top of your core and spam at entrances all day. Siege maps can be pretty annoying if your trying to run offense without good support, we have some weird ass maps that take some time to get used to and defense is definitely the easier position to play in siege because of mines and super protectors. The clarion spot is probably the most complained about, it's annoying but defense can still shoot and hit someone at that spot, forcing them to play the usual left-right defense on clarion.

Sup Spamming: Cmon Convict bro, it's SUP spam not SUB lol. Sup spam comes in doses. A lot of people cry about sup spam the instant they get shot at in their sup. It's going to happen so get over it, it becomes a problem when it's done throughout half a match. That should just not happen, your team is falling to pieces if that's what is happening. However I don't think teams should sup spam when a team is obviously beaten.

I think it comes down to anything for the win. Siege is defense friendly, I can admit to that.

[|uK|chiseller]

I am with Convict, in fact, remove that pussy rule completely. This ain't public, this is war.
Also, sup spamming is not a huge issue. Once you're being spammed to death it's an indication that you already lost the map anyway. Again, pointless rule. Usual sup spam can easily be prevented if you build intelligently and otherwise you will get punished for it.

[HIGH[+]AdRiaN]

each player has his own belief about what is camp lol
for someplayer stay on mid of minicivil/bathrooms is camp, but there are not any shelter or hidden place... for some players stay killing from a long rage is camp, hide behind a simple wall, wait the enemy pass you and kill is camp...

this is complicated, for me camp is only kill on face's tower, face's mid (using that decrease in the middle of the map for protect your self), stay using on a place that the incs always pass with 10hp for get him with 1 shot/pulse...

camp is use the map like a very advantageous and coward position

[mal]

orbital

[Higor]

Proposal:
One hit = dead.
Simple, if you stay in a specific zone/trigger's physical space for longer than 3 seconds, any hit you receive will kill you.
This way, known camping locations can be covered with these special purpose triggers/zones, gonna add this to the fixed package soon...

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

sorry but you might as well turn siege into just siege with insta gun and now normal weapons if thats the case.

[Higor]

It would only kick in when a player sits in a known camping position for longer than 3 seconds, take CTF-Face roof as an example.

Perhaps it can be scripted but that might allow some exploits.
It would consist on tracking the player's last 20 kill positions and last 20 death positions.
When the kill-death ratio in a map position becomes an adjustable positive (between 4 and 8 would be nice) the damage inflicted and received is scaled (adjustable as well, might be incremental or not).
This way, if somebody makes too many kills in a position without dying, this somebody would have to change locations to continue to be effective.
Another usage of this method (developer's choice) is the positive handicap, upon reaching a negative (4-8), the player will receive less damage and deal more to others.

The goodies of the scripting method is, that it can be tested as a mutator without changing the main gametype.

Examples:
- I make a killing spree on clarion's left bridge, I deal 70% damage and take 130%, these handicaps are returned to 100% if I move to a different spot.
- I make 10 kills from CTF-Face's roof, I deal 40% damage and take 180% on this position.

--- Updated ---

Expanding the scripting method.
One way to cut exploits is to record 20 or 30 combined positions (death + kill).
This way a player won't type suicide in a position reapeatedly to gain permanent advantage.

Secondly, this makes Sup spam ineffective as well, just spam rockets and get a few kills, and the next cluster you fire will already deal far less damage.

[|uK|kenneth]

3? wow

[HIGH[+]AdRiaN]

It would only kick in when a player sits in a known camping position for longer than 3 seconds, take CTF-Face roof as an example.

Perhaps it can be scripted but that might allow some exploits.
It would consist on tracking the player's last 20 kill positions and last 20 death positions.
When the kill-death ratio in a map position becomes an adjustable positive (between 4 and 8 would be nice) the damage inflicted and received is scaled (adjustable as well, might be incremental or not).
This way, if somebody makes too many kills in a position without dying, this somebody would have to change locations to continue to be effective.
Another usage of this method (developer's choice) is the positive handicap, upon reaching a negative (4-8), the player will receive less damage and deal more to others.

The goodies of the scripting method is, that it can be tested as a mutator without changing the main gametype.

Examples:
- I make a killing spree on clarion's left bridge, I deal 70% damage and take 130%, these handicaps are returned to 100% if I move to a different spot.
- I make 10 kills from CTF-Face's roof, I deal 40% damage and take 180% on this position.

--- Updated ---

Expanding the scripting method.
One way to cut exploits is to record 20 or 30 combined positions (death + kill).
This way a player won't type suicide in a position reapeatedly to gain permanent advantage.

Secondly, this makes Sup spam ineffective as well, just spam rockets and get a few kills, and the next cluster you fire will already deal far less damage.
i do not understand anything :x

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

lol adrian well the flaw is what if someone is idle for 30 seconds cos they had to quickly do something, or for example you are waiting for an incoming nuker? etc etc etc i could make the list go on forever

[Higor]

It would work like this:

You make a kill, a kill point is added (radius is adjustable)
You die, a death point is added.

When you inflict damage, the mutator will go through this player's kill and death points, taking the player's position and the point's radius into consideration.
Every kill point nearby will be a +1, and every death point will be a -1.
If the player has a high positive ratio in this place, his damage will be scaled down.
Same when the player is hit, but increasing the damage received.

When you wait for an incoming nuker, it will most likely be in a special location you don't use for camping, so the damages won't be scaled.
This would only affect certain positions the player used to gain lots of kills without dying, and will be cleared over time if the player decides to attack (placing newer kill and death points).

Somebody like Blaze would be totally unaffected by this because he moves a lot and his ratio would always vary between +1 and +3, can't say the same for folks like Rays (able to reach +10 ratio in a certain location given some time).

[audiosonic]

Higor what the hell man lol, that's not what we're discussing here, we want to know what the people's opinion is about supplier spamming and camping. Your ideas to prevent it don't sound like something we would want to implement in a game, it's too restrictive and is not always desired.

For example you're an attacker and conveniently DON'T attack the players in enemy base (you only hit the buildings, and stay in the same place) so you die 20 times in their base without doing any damage. That would mean you receive less % damage then and give more %? Take a nuke in hand after 20 deaths and abuse it to the max I would say!

[Higor]

Simple, negative ratios won't affect damage. It's good to discuss these stuff.

Now if you want to do something about camping in the upcoming MLSG, well, you're going to need at least two moderators spectating both teams to make sure everything is fine.

[UcHiHa]

Why you dont only left all how it was??, i dont remember last year any objections about the gameplay, camping, spamming, etc etc etc. Dude, if you are visible for be killed is enough , just check than defenders are not hidden behind any structure, and ofcourse, not using any bugs. About spamming , i gonna put an example... if you are playing Bathrooms(fixed) and you get in from tunnel and you see 2 guys on sup, you need to kill them right, SO what can you do?? "of course" rocket launcher and KABOOM, you are free to go, so is simple, dont put container so close to SS, THINK ,we cant avoid spam LOL, if you nuke supplier is spam too? LOL AGAIN, just be sure about how you tell your defenders to build the base.

I think the only spam than needs to be disallowed is spam supplier with sniper, thats really stupid, like in clarion for example . if we gonna play with a guy shooting all the time to supplier making monster kill. dude there is a fu****** core open.... can you see?? For that mlsg admins are,for check games.

[TDNConvict]

this thread isn't going the way I hoped.. higor going off into some crazyness when we need less complication in siege to attract people instead of more...

and uchiha there was complaints last season... basically what happens is people lose... they get upset and they try and pick apart the demo and get a forfeit win because they lost.. and they always use camping/subspamming as the way to do it...

I don't see how playing on towers in clarion is camping at all or being a pussy camper or whatever else you want to say about it.. your wide open to be hit and your helping your offense as they attack... I guess people here just arn't strong enough to run offense without having a crutch

and rays I know its sup spam but I like sub spam 10x more just like i'm a baest and I like to steak pugs

don't get me wrong I love siege and the community but the level of players shots isn't what ig or weps is... if it was this would be a non issue... i'm coming to understand and accept that people need every crutch possible here

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

its okay im the best shittalker anyway :D

[Krikor]

if camping or sup spamming is gonna be allowed

PLEASE, take me out of the player's list b4 the draft starts

[kron]

Same, take me off the captain list and player list.
If any of the rules are gonna be changed a day before the draft, then im out.
Ill pick a team and resign as captain.

[Reb]

The rule remains as is. No additions or subtractions were made.

The MLSG admins have discussed interpretations of the rule and have come to a general agreement on how to rule in cases that might come up. The current rule serves our purpose and will remain.

In the future, rules are generally concrete and will never be changed for the season - however.. if the admins discover a loophole or anything that threatens the integrity of the league, we will change the rule(s) and notify the public for feedback.

[A^3]

Just use Siege pug rules and no excessive sup spam,. Also no translocater thru super container. No telefragging the super container aswell. Camping Is hard to judge. It's hard not to camp on maps like bluvember,clarion.

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

actually its pretty easy not to camp on maps like bluevember and clarion but some cant grasp sitting in base and waiting for a super pro to shoot an enemy down to 10 health and then coming out to kill that player with pulse or shock is actually camping.

[Moko]

How is that camping? D:
If you are standing there okay, but what if you are also scouting?
:S

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

i dont see how you can scout for a player when the super pro is shooting directly in that players direction please correct me if im wrong because i sure as hell know im not.