Public changes

[|uK|chiseller]

Since Mr. Spiderman hasn't had his snickers yet, I'll have to make a new thread and lock the other one.


Fixed the whole constructor mess. Changed the order and names back to the previous version, removed some stuff and tried to adjust things towards the pug version. Of course, it's not as restrictive as pug.
Biggest change: Minishield is gone.

Removed some more maps that were not needed, mainly copies of existing one's (more to come). Of course, we could have 5 different Niven versions and I am sure each one of them will be played frequently but that's not the point.
There's a reason why we have a repetition limit of 20. The goal is to have one map and not two or more of the same, so that the limit cannot be bypassed.
It would be ideal if the mapvote featured grouping maps, that way we could mark all maps of a group red if one of them is voted. Will look into that.

If you have a map that you would like to see on the server post it here and I will up it.

--- Updated ---

Old discussion (http://www.unrealkillers.com/f19/bathrooms-eq-map-removed-6256/); continue here.

[|uK|kenneth]

where did mah 24hoursschool go son?

[Higor]

Let's figure out the pub metagame.

Changes:
- No ContainerX
- No Minishield
- No HealthPod
- No repetitive maps

The lack of defensive builds like Minishields and ContainerX will impact maps with doors and hallways, the risk of losing a Super Protector is higher than ever (since 2011), this means that maps where structures defend for you become increasingly difficult to play if you're behind.
Without health pods, teams that are ahead cannot push their early game advantage as a group, leaving you to go to the 'nuke stage' without a choice.

This is the age of Adrian's Siege, gg wp.

[|uK|Rays]

It's ok you can still hide behind super pros and spam mines.

good changes btw

[|uK|Tomahawk]

First and foremost Ive said it before and I will say it again, I appricate all the work everyone does for this wonderful game.(all the admins here Sam Chis (and yes even blaze you angry little midget). Higor. Moskva, Sw and even mappers like zac humak adrain etc.)

BUT TACTICAL DIVERSITY IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me explain. Siege was getting updates that did promote this but are no longer on the server, hence this post. This post is mainly constructive criticism please take it as so.

What I meen is Siege shouldn't just be about people who have the best aim. When I think of siege I think of 1 team trying to breach the other teams base TOGETHER. And in real life that's kinda what a siege is.(Breach the other country's stronghold or base by any means necessary.)

Items that promoted teamplay that are longer on the server when imo I think they coulda been tweaked to help promote the tactical diversity.

-Factory, back in the old days it was an item that you built to make a whole slew of items Killer protectors(op as fuck im actually glad they are gone)

-Shrinkers(im actually glad they made a return as a mid spawn) but still I think should be buildable for atleast like 2k ru because in some maps you were able to get in spaces and make teles you weren't able to make without the suit, thus changing up the game a bit.

-Super jump boots also come to mind, I think theses could come back in SOME maps(jump twice as high as normal jump boots but only give it 1-2 charges and if you wanted to up it it cost a shit ton more to upgrade for more charges like 150-300-450-600-750 steep I know but being able to jump super high like that could change siege gameplay quite a bit imo.) and I can think of some maps they would be hella useful (both versions of blackriver comes to mind)

-EMP BOMB! This whole item is the definition of tactical diversity imo and I think people are just scared of its raw power. Although the emp is in pub(not sure about pugs haven't seen it in any) by the grenade launcher I think it should come back. I was able to end a map of bluevember in overtime(nearly full public server as well) and get above the core just because I got the grenade launcher with 2 shots of emp. (maybe reduce the range up the cost a bit) This item promotes team play more then anything and it would be wonderful if it made its return in some shape or fourm other then the grenade launcher.

-Minishield, why just why? People are just gonna build suppliers as minishields like they always used to, and ive already seen it happen on some pugs. I can only imagine what the apes on public server are gonna do with it now.

-Dampner, boy of boy where do I start with this item. This was the PERFECT item for siege imo, an item that reduces the sound of your footsteps, piston and jumpboots. The price was too low and honestly shoulda been kept and upped to atleast 400. The reason I say its the perfect item for siege is because from what ive noticed ALOT of defenders both on public, or pugs relies on there sounds to help them find out when somebody comes into the base. Now if this was kept it would constantly make the defenders more and more aware of there surroundings' because they wouldn't know whether or not somebody would be coming into the base.

-Door jammer, plain and simple the item was broken. Reduce the range of it( I was able to build it not even close to the door itself, that's kinda broken) Make it last for like 3-7 seconds and and then have it destroyed but make it cost like 500-700 without being able to up it. This would cause teams to coordinate more to nuke or to go 4 o or something when they set down a door jammer to try and take over the base.

There might be more items that were lost to time that I cant think of right now but oh well. Although it is true what other say in the end UT is SHOOTING GAME yes I know that but the reason why siege appealed to me in the first place all those years ago was because of the constructor and the fact that you can BUILD STUFF and that it actually took a bit of strategy to win other then point and click. Siege is a team game and should be treated as such. Its just that I feel like these updates are catering more and more to the players who have the best aim (which is okay to an extent but shouldn't be the primary focus of all the updates because then that would just promote more solo play imo.)

Now im willing to be optimistic about the future of this wonderful mod because siege honestly is one of the only reason why im still around in this community and still playing this game(as im sure its the same for others) This has been on my mind for quite a while now and ive felt the need to share with everyone.

[Scourge]

Agree:
- 1200 damage amp. It might actually be useful now.

Disagree:
- 400 RU for a shieldbelt.
- No minishield (as shitty as some players make them) - These help a lot, and I'd rather not have to use a container or super supplier to block my SPs.
- Health pod (sort of). I personally found the health pod very useless since it died easily and hardly did anything your teammates couldn't do; what would really have given it a place in siege is upping its armor cap and replenish rate.

Other gripes:
- The grenade launcher is useless without EMP - a waste of a midspawn, much like the hyper leecher.
- Dampener needs work. Some sounds, like the minigun startup, are not muted. It's also sort of a pointless item if the two most popular leeching weapons aren't muted (bio hits and ripper fire). Yes, I get that it's a personal item and isn't supposed to mute projectile impact sounds, just the guns, but it isn't even doing that for the ripper - so what's the point?

[Higor]

- 1200 damage amp. It might actually be useful now.
As long as it's not upgradeable.


- 400 RU for a shieldbelt.
I used to take Toxin Suit instead of Shield Belt as a situational nuke item, due to lack of visual effect which didn't draw attention to me, and immunity to Poison Guardians + bio spam.
Now it's not longer a situational item, i'll grab Toxin suit 100% of times instead of Shield Belt if needed.


- Health pod (sort of). I personally found the health pod very useless since it died easily and hardly did anything your teammates couldn't do; what would really have given it a place in siege is upping its armor cap and replenish rate.
Never fit your playstyle, but it was extremely useful at punishing teams that wasted RU early on.
It's not the same to take on enemies at the 8 minute mark with 60/125 than 20/100, you can get pretty easily overrun if your team doesn't have a good fragger to push them back.


- The grenade launcher is useless without EMP - a waste of a midspawn, much like the hyper leecher.
That's the '22' spawn variation for you, two random ammo picks (0-50%) that can collide (no flame), you can get a fully charged EMP-only GL or a GL without EMP at all.
Still, without MiniShields the GL should be kept as is.
Maybe have the Toxic(def) and Fragmentation(off) launchers as buildables to add a little tactic to the game.



-Dampner, boy of boy where do I start with this item. This was the PERFECT item for siege imo, an item that reduces the sound of your footsteps, piston and jumpboots. The price was too low and honestly shoulda been kept and upped to atleast 400. The reason I say its the perfect item for siege is because from what ive noticed ALOT of defenders both on public, or pugs relies on there sounds to help them find out when somebody comes into the base. Now if this was kept it would constantly make the defenders more and more aware of there surroundings' because they wouldn't know whether or not somebody would be coming into the base.
I think Dampener's still on the list, it's underused but very useful.
Increasing the price would change it from underused to not used, because utility items don't directly provide RU.



-Door jammer, plain and simple the item was broken. Reduce the range of it( I was able to build it not even close to the door itself, that's kinda broken) Make it last for like 3-7 seconds and and then have it destroyed but make it cost like 500-700 without being able to up it. This would cause teams to coordinate more to nuke or to go 4 o or something when they set down a door jammer to try and take over the base.
Making the jammer was tough, the build location is based on the Mover's current center point distance (if triggerless), or the Mover's trigger distance.
Some door triggers are horribly placed, and that results on weird possible jammer locations, some too close and others too far.
Still, it's very noticeable when a door/elevator's being jammed and it gets focus fire'd quickly.
If I were to make a change... is to increase the hitbox's size a bit more... even I find it annoying to hit while moving.

--- Updated ---

PD: The only reason I every built minishields was ANTIFUN.
I'm indifferent to that change TBH.
The ContainerX is the one that hurts :( I even reduced the max HP and limited to 4 to make it balanced.

[Chamberly]

Siege was getting updates that did promote this but are no longer on the server

The admin alert is not fully configured. So it's the admin that have to work on that. Even severed tried but get ignored.

[|uK|chiseller]

Thanks for that post |uK|Tomahawk
It perfectly illustrates why it's hard to take all those knee-jerk reactions serious. You go on and write a fucking bible but didn't even bother to play 1 map with the changes implemented. All the items you mentioned are still present. Back in the "glorious" days you had half the choices you have now.
Please just shut up.


I don't mind ContainerX. See this as a temporary change or work in progress, it might be back sooner than later.
It's just.. that something had to be done about public because it was a mess, I know all the pub heroes won't agree with that.


I was never approached or read anywhere anything about admin alert. Sorry that I don't check every corner of this forum but as I said in my initial post. If you want me to upload something post it here or PM.

|uK|kenneth done. BattleBridges too.
Someone please update the maplist.

[Chamberly]

I was never approached or read anywhere anything about admin alert. Sorry that I don't check every corner of this forum but as I said in my initial post. If you want me to upload something post it here or PM.

.seVered.][ and ~V~ been working on a new update so best to get with .seVered.][
He normally PM SAM about it I think.

[Krikor]

belt increse is a must, i mean are u kidding me? its basically impossible to kill someone with belt who is transing around if u dont have insta, even with insta i think it barely kills them (or not?), belt gives too much protection, 150 health 150 armor is already a lot defense for this gamemode, having a 300 armor that can be recovered is kinda ridiculous for just 250 ru. Maybe a 100 ru increase cost is fine, ive always thought boots upgrade cost is very very VERY low aswell but i guess its not big deal

Minishield, totally agree they are gone, since the ru u get from them was never increased they should be gone cuz they are too strong

Buildable shrinker sounds bad since people would just abuse it back in the old days, its just fine as a spawn in mid public, but it requires to be fixed, make u lose ur items (speed, belt---) if u grab it or have it

[Stormy]

The invis nukers and the jetpackers was very op too with that cheap belt

If you have 1500ru make a SS, its more stronger than a minishield :D

[HIGH[+]AdRiaN]

Minishield sucks Higor! Only 700 RU for a almost undestructible build, which makes simple SM's and SP's almost undestructible... then you NEED use nukes for destroy these simples builds, and the enemy team just remake it (not the shield, because it NEVER DIE)...
This is really a coward and anti fun build, i'm not saying this because I play on offense, this really is my opnion.
________________

Belt - 400 RU is good
Jetpack - 850 is good
Super Jetpack - should be 2000 imo

[Woody]

I don't agree that they have removed the "Mini Shield" :/ . in my opinion, I did not like the change That they made in the server, but well...

[HIGH[+]AdRiaN]

I don't agree that they have removed the "Mini Shield" :/ . in my opinion, I did not like the change That they made in the server, but well...

Maybe remove was not the best solution, but something should have been done.
I think 2 shields by team, valued at 1200 each one could be fine (same price than ff? no, you dont need upgrade the shields)

[~~D4RR3N~~]

AdRiaN;94334]Only 700 RU for a almost undestructible build, which makes simple SM's and SP's almost undestructible... then you NEED use nukes for destroy these simples builds, and the enemy team just remake it (not the shield, because it NEVER DIE)...
This is just too accurate. Minishields are way too OP. Increasing price + decreasing resistance seems like the most logical solution to me

[Chamberly]

Ya know, minishield can be altered to not to be too hard to kill and such by providing either less health or such damage it can take to destroy... and then provide with a lower cost than 700 ru (if that how much it cost? I hardly build it!) and without the minishield, be very careful with FF cuz some apes would decide to use it as minishield lol.. for those who would intentionally remove FF without asking :L you know who you are.
Minishield on public was commonly used I think. Based on the game I've seen and played in.

Shieldbelt on public was commonly used.
I guess I don't mind the shieldbelt being 400 ru because I don't always use it except sometimes when I nuke. It'll serve the right purpose to prevent some lamers who just DM and not play actual siege.

The amp previously was underused and didn't do much of a damage imo (level 0 didn't do well for the first hit on the core, it was very odd... the mid amp is better than building one.) so I'll take a look at this. I never used this except 1 time I think? Idr.

ContX? What's that? (JK of course...)

Until next evaluation...

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

you do know you can reduce the sound of your footsteps by using the walk key???

anyway i've talked to severed and hes testing the admin alert on weps server at the moment, I have upped some files for him

[Skarn]

I think dampener shouldn't stop working after some time, I'd rather have it work until you get killed, but increase the price a little.
Or how about an alternative? An explosive or a build that makes a very loud noise and smoke for around 15 seconds, which allows people to sneak in without being heard or seen, but the team that made the build will also have trouble seeing where they'll be going so it's balanced (the smoke spreads on a large scale), although the smoke and sound are reduced over time, so it begins to be more easy to see and hear.

[Chamberly]

you do know you can reduce the sound of your footsteps by using the walk key???

who doesn't? lol

[Banny]

Please stop giving stupid ideas to make enemy base infiltration more easy. We are here for a team game not just some single stupid item that can cause havoc and make the game more unbalanced. Learn team communications , concept of decoys , nuking in groups etc.


PS : No offence to anyone!

[Scourge]

Learn team communications , concept of decoys , nuking in groups etc.

espanol pls

[Banny]

espanol pls

Incoming left , right , high , nuker? Isn't that hard!

[Scourge]

Incoming left , right , high , nuker? Isn't that hard!

que

[IronMaiden]

For what it's worth some more feedback:

1.) Would it be possible to have 2 FFs? In many large maps another FF would be really handy. I remember times when they had been unlimited, that was ridiculous and laggy, but 2 might be nice.

2.) People will build sups and cons in-front of SPs. I never liked seeing a SS being misused for that. The MS should come back at some point IMO.

3.) Can we have the spy suit, maybe when the matches are over? That was always fun. Maybe just at mid-span, makes it less predictable.

4.) Nevermind.


http://www.unrealkillers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2432&d=1436322460

http://www.unrealkillers.com/images/icons/icon14.png

[Skarn]

I don't think ppl can learn any sort of strategical teamwork on public atleast, except for the willing few.

[|uK|B|aZe//.]

Last i checked we were playing ut99 not call of faggotry.

Need more people to pug plis

[Chamberly]

call of faggotry

Where does this have to come in? I never played COD game so this is strange.

[|uK|chiseller]

It's been 3 months. Have the changes improved your gaming experience or possibly made it worse?





1.) Would it be possible to have 2 FFs? In many large maps another FF would be really handy. I remember times when they had been unlimited, that was ridiculous and laggy, but 2 might be nice.
I tend to agree.




3.) Can we have the spy suit, maybe when the matches are over? That was always fun. Maybe just at mid-span, makes it less predictable.
I wouldn't mind seeing it back too, was a great item.



I don't agree that they have removed the "Mini Shield" :/ . in my opinion, I did not like the change That they made in the server, but well...


2.) People will build sups and cons in-front of SPs. I never liked seeing a SS being misused for that. The MS should come back at some point IMO.


- No minishield (as shitty as some players make them) - These help a lot, and I'd rather not have to use a container or super supplier to block my SPs.

Has your mind changed or do you still want the MS back?


The invis nukers and the jetpackers was very op too with that cheap belt
Agreed.



That's the '22' spawn variation for you, two random ammo picks (0-50%) that can collide (no flame), you can get a fully charged EMP-only GL or a GL without EMP at all.
Still, without MiniShields the GL should be kept as is.
Maybe have the Toxic(def) and Fragmentation(off) launchers as buildables to add a little tactic to the game.



- The grenade launcher is useless without EMP - a waste of a midspawn, much like the hyper leecher.

GL was never supposed to spawn with rockets only and I am still not sure why it happens. However, since most people (http://www.unrealkillers.com/f19/grenade-launcher-4297/) voted for it to be gone I thought I'd leave it for now.
InventoryList[13]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=21?properties(pickupammoco unt=7)
The only thing that was changed was pickupammocount.

Opinion on
Belt - better/worse/meh
Amp - better/worse/meh
ContainerX - bring it back?

[Chamberly]

InventoryList[13]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=21?properties(pickupammoco unt=7)

Confirmed. That's what causing it to be only alt rocket grenades.
Seem like a bug, unless I'm missing something. Higor
The forum love to add space... -.-

Belt: I guess a bit too much RU for it for me.
Amp: Still didn't touch it yet but I gotta try it, but hate to sabotage a game just trying to figure it out.
ContainerX: Would be an interesting comeback, but with a limit of 4 I guess.

[Cella_V2]

Amp to 1200 is prolly one of the best things that has happened so far. Really helps in turtle maps, and is high risk high reward on open maps imo.

[Krikor]

Amp 1200 is kind of cheap but i think its fine
Belt is fine
dont know about containerX
Still...What needs to be fixed hasnt been fixed. Siege wont get any better until its done, havent played more than just the IST matches because of that

[Janssen]

tried to make contX and saw it wasn't there, my SP kept getting killed off, actually thought it was a good idea as opposed to indestructable stuff that won't go down.

[|uK|kenneth]

Amp to 1200 is prolly one of the best things that has happened so far. Really helps in turtle maps, and is high risk high reward on open maps imo.

this

and belt is a bit to much i think maybe change it to 335?

i don't mind about the container X

[Higor]

Has your mind changed or do you still want the MS back?
Limit to 1 if 0018.
Limit to 4 if 0019. (heavily nerfed against non-explosive weapons).
Or change the cost via profile to 850.


Belt - better/worse/meh
Much worse on 0018
Balanced on 0019, you can build with 250 ru, but comes with RU_Spent/400 * 150, scaling linearly it's 93 to 150 (250 ru to 400)



Amp - better/worse/meh
Love it, I can literally eliminate a campstation or gate defense if I have 6k RU stored.



ContainerX - bring it back?
Yes, with the previous rules (it had a limit and a reduced max HP), should help far defenses and outposts against the better amp, cheaper leechers and apes.

Rule[10]=RULE(FourCX?class=sgContainerX?min=4)
Rule[11]=NOT(CXLimit?FourCX)
Rule[41]=B=sgContainerX?properties(MaxEnergy=3750)?CXLimit



InventoryList[13]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=21?properties(pickupammoco unt=22)
The grenade launcher stores the ammo in 4 different vars and uses PickupAmmoCount as a ammo generator code instead.
- 20 is full
- 21 is random on each
- 22 is 2 x 0-50% of a random type except flame (and can have same type on both cases)
The 22 variation is ideal during the first 30 spawns, and 21 for the other ones.
So i'd do it like this if we still have mid spawn slots (weight increases 3 by 3):

InventoryList[xx]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=21?maxw=90?properties(pick upammocount=22)
InventoryList[xx]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=91?properties(pickupammoco unt=21)



I wouldn't mind seeing it back too, was a great item.
Novak likes this.


Other notes:
- I'd use 0019 on the pug server only for at least a couple of weeks, gameplay-wise is the biggest quality leap in years but betatesters from both dev servers have been quiet... too quiet.
- InventoryList[23] is the maximum mid spawn item index.

[Chamberly]

- InventoryList[23] is the maximum mid spawn item index.

Oh you...

Wow that GL confused me. I guess I have more to go to figure this out.
But other than that, I'm willing to try 0019 with that profile, and if it goes wrong can always change it.

[Higor]

For the gurus (ammo index 0 is rockets and not processed here):



function TakeAmmoFrom( sgGrenadeLauncher GL)
{
local int i, j, k;
if ( GL.PickupAmmoCount == 20 ) //This is a default drop, set max to all ammos
{
For ( i=1 ; i<5 ; i++ )
AmmoCounts[i] = MaxAmmos[i];
}
else if ( GL.PickupAmmoCount == 21 ) //This is a mid random drop
{
j = Rand(4) + 1;
i = Rand(3) + 1;
if ( i == j )
i++;
For ( k=1 ; k<5 ; k++ )
{
if ( k==i ) continue; //No ammo here
else if ( k==j ) AmmoCounts[k] = MaxAmmos[k]; //Full ammo here
else AmmoCounts[k] = Clamp(AmmoCounts[k] + Rand(MaxAmmos[k]), 0, MaxAmmos[k]); //Random ammo
}
}
else if ( GL.PickupAmmoCount == 22 ) //Nerfed random drop
{
j = Rand(3) + 1;
i = Rand(3) + 1;
if ( i == 2 ) //No napalm
i=4;
if ( j == 2 )
j=4;
AmmoCounts[j] += Clamp(Rand(MaxAmmos[j]/2), Rand(MaxAmmos[j])/2, MaxAmmos[j]); //Random ammo
AmmoCounts[i] += Clamp(Rand(MaxAmmos[i]/2), Rand(MaxAmmos[i])/2, MaxAmmos[i]); //Random ammo
}
else //This weapon was dropped by a pawn
{
For ( i=1 ; i<5 ; i++ )
AmmoCounts[i] = Clamp( AmmoCounts[i] + GL.AmmoCounts[i], 0, MaxAmmos[i] );
}
CheckGLState( GL);
}

[|uK|chiseller]

Where can I get my hands on 19?

[|uK|kenneth]

Where can I get my hands on

:tosser:

Sorry chis i had to do dis!

[IronMaiden]

Here is my vote (trying to make it simple):

- 2 FF
- 2 MS
- no container X (in this case 2 MS and an additional FF are plenty for defense improvements)
- Belt 400
- Amp 1200
- Spy suite at mid

[Higor]

defense improvements)

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/412/493/529.png
... I WAS TALKING ABOUT USING CONTAINER X FOR DEFENSE

The ultimate team trapping tool, capable of turning Simplex into Niven, of course I want it.

--- Updated ---


Where can I get my hands on 19?
Servers on my signature, both use the same redirect lol... although the Linux server has been having some downtimes SicilianKill

[IronMaiden]

... I WAS TALKING ABOUT USING CONTAINER X FOR DEFENSE

The ultimate team trapping tool, capable of turning Simplex into Niven, of course I want it.

--- Updated ---


Servers on my signature, both use the same redirect lol... although the Linux server has been having some downtimes SicilianKill

Got a screenshot? I'm not sure what you mean.

[SicilianKill]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/412/493/529.png
... I WAS TALKING ABOUT USING CONTAINER X FOR DEFENSE

The ultimate team trapping tool, capable of turning Simplex into Niven, of course I want it.

--- Updated ---


Servers on my signature, both use the same redirect lol... although the Linux server has been having some downtimes SicilianKill

Higor: Server is again online. I already told Chamberly that the hostsystem was restarted by random and the UT server was not able to start after the downtime. Server is since yesterday again online.

[Woody]

The Grenade Laucher, If they will not remove, Leave it as it was before ... 15,15,15,15,45, I do not know if you understand.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

The Grenade Laucher, If they will not remove, Leave it as it was before ... 15,15,15,15,45, I do not know if you understand.

Too spammy, returning it to how it was before won't be a good idea IMO. The only way that would be productive is to Kill it or make it useful somehow, a single shot of emp and flame with grenades removed, this would then replace the need for a nuke to clear mines in a base entrance, like Simplex door for example., it might be used constructively instead of a spam weapon.

[|uK|chiseller]

Indeed Fluke. That's what I was trying to achieve but is apparently not possible via profile.

[Higor]

What's wrong with PickupAmmoCount=22?

[|uK|chiseller]

50% emp and bio is still a lot but much better than originally, indeed. I will put it like that and see how it goes.
BTW is the spy suit still available? If people don't mind I will put it back.

[Chamberly]

BTW is the spy suit still available?

Yes.

[Woody]

So if they will not make the change, remove "the grenade launcher" in the mid, because that weapon in the mid isn't necessary. Only clogged.

[|uK|chiseller]

Updated to SiegeIV 0019 and LCWeapons 0016 (including redirect)


MiniShield (limited to 2) is back and noticeably nerfed
Belt is upgradeable from 250 to 400 RU
Grenade Launcher is back and nerfed

Changed and added some mid spawns. For those who are curious:

InitialWaitSecs=300
BaseRespawnSecs=60
InventoryList[0]=SpySuit?minw=120
InventoryList[1]=SuperWRU30?minw=0?maxw=2
InventoryList[2]=MegaHealth?minw=30
InventoryList[3]=HyperLeecher?minw=3?maxw=48
InventoryList[4]=SuperWRU60?minw=3?maxw=120
InventoryList[5]=Botpack.UDamage?minw=15?properties(charge=400)
InventoryList[6]=ApeCannon?minw=3?maxw=90
InventoryList[7]=AsmdPulseRifle?minw=3
InventoryList[8]=SuperWRU120?minw=18
InventoryList[9]=SiegeInstagibRifle?minw=21
InventoryList[10]=WildcardsRubberSuit?minw=12
InventoryList[11]=WildcardsMetalSuit?minw=51
InventoryList[12]=FlameThrower?minw=51
InventoryList[13]=sgGrenadeLauncher?minw=90?properties(pickupammoco unt=22)
InventoryList[14]=SuperWRU240?minw=60
InventoryList[15]=sgShrinkerTimer?minw=120
InventoryList[16]=sgNukeLauncher?minw=120
InventoryList[17]=WildcardsRubberSuit?minw=510?properties(charge=50 )

Feedback is appreciated

The same setup is on the pug server as freebuild version if anyone wants to try.

[Krikor]

I hope its how i expect minishield to be...
Same with belt, should be rather very weak level 0, I may go play public tonight

[|uK|chiseller]

Higor There appears to be an issue with the constructor. Some people have the big screen showing up in their face when selecting the constructor. I believe it's because of weapon show. Fix?

Minishield is much weaker, yea.

[Chamberly]

Um.... screenshot? They probably have a very close FOV or something... but I always play with weapon on hidden but I did checked it out but it didn't appear larger than usual. Resolution? I guess I'll have to check with 800x600..

Oh shit spysuit back in mid! LOL!

[|uK|chiseller]

Belt: Not a fan of the upgrade. A lvl 0 belt and super healthpod gives you almost max armor and it takes 3 headshots to kill you.
Amp: Sometimes the countdown displays wrong times
Jetpack: Sometimes doesn't notice when I press jump right after I pick it up

Chamberly the issue is not the size, it's the fact that it's there in the first place with no way of disabling it (except for hiding your weapons)

[|uK|fleecey]

Um.... screenshot? They probably have a very close FOV or something... but I always play with weapon on hidden but I did checked it out but it didn't appear larger than usual. Resolution? I guess I'll have to check with 800x600..

Oh shit spysuit back in mid! LOL!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1582415/Shot0006.png[COLOR="Red"]

[Chamberly]

Hmm. Now something else come into mind: let the client adjust the size on the constructor as they like.. so like -1 for off, 0 for small, 0.5, etc. and positioning value display... if that can be done. Or an option to use the old constructor view via behindview 0?

I think it looked normal (like it was intended (?) as I saw in mine unless mine is bigger than that, idr) in the ss but idk what to think? : s

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

The issue is in the constructor settings, Classic view settings does not function and appears to be a server side function, I have checked by setting constructor to false in siege.ini and set the file to read only but the setting still doesn't work. People's resolution will alter the constructors size I assume? For me it is far too big and covers the entire lower left portion of the screen, more than the SS from fleece above. I do not play with weapon hidden, I use right hand

Damage amp does not seem to have a solid timer without upgrading, twice it lasted for 30 seconds and 3 times it lasted for 20....a bit random.

Apart from those highlighted above I see no other issues personally, I don't actually know what else has changed.

[Higor]

Got tired of the animation mojo between both models and simply swept out the classic one, also I wanted to see if ppl actually gets used to the panel as it properly displays what item is about to be affected by any of the three primary functions.
Now for something actually not intended: switching from constructor into any other weapon happens instantly... I was pleasantly surprised after doing some quick '0' doubletaps into rifle, might as well keep it like that.

Also, I see the point here, tying the weapon's size to the left and right borders of the screen is great for all weapons... except constructor, will have to do something about it.
At least I'm glad this is the only thing I'm hearing complaints from, it was usually worse during the RC stages.

BTW the amp countdown is a problem with how the engine sends info on items to players, SW had to make an asyncronous timer to display an estimate on when the amp finishes... and sometimes the timer starts before the client gets to receive the information that the timer's lenght isn't 30 seconds, but 40 (mid spawn amp is edited to last a little longer).
Getting the amp to properly update it's internal timer so that the HUD knows it would require subclassing the item or yet another ugly hack.

[Chamberly]

Just... Oh... My... Gawd! HAHAHAHAHA I can't believe this! I forgot how it looked.

My original FOV, 110!!!
http://i61.tinypic.com/1j2nbo.jpg
After pressing f9... http://i58.tinypic.com/96hmxt.jpg
Trying some build :P http://i60.tinypic.com/2explyv.jpg
This looks.... crazy. http://i58.tinypic.com/2w24ufn.jpg
Can't see with invisi... that's why I don't see mines either. http://i60.tinypic.com/14wau4h.jpg
Kewl! http://i60.tinypic.com/bgtjia.jpg

Mah fov 90... and it looks pretty much normal to me.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2rnubdh.jpg

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

Higor if you can make the constructor new design to be the same size as trans/old constructor as well as being on the weapon chosen hand then I would like it, its not I don't like the new one, I just cant play with it that size and for me it is confusing on the left when I use weapon right hand.

I have tried hidden view but I could never get used to it.

Personally....and this is just an opinion, I would rotate the constructor and hand model 45 degrees to the left so the constructor window is on top instead of beside.

One other thing, I don't know if it is just me but I feel like I have to get a lot closer to a build to upgrade or repair it, has the distance been altered?

[evilserpentman]

Since this new build, I've been crashing more times than a drunk driver in a demolition derby.
All general protection faults with whatever asset the game decided was rubbish at the time.

[|uK|fleecey]

A lot of people crash over and over, idk if this is the message people get, but this is the third time i get this.. it gets very annoying to play when you keep crashing.

Also I notice, when you drop connection, or UT crash and u made something in the game and you come back, your name doesn't appear anymore on that building.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1582415/crash.png

[evilserpentman]

A lot of people crash over and over, idk if this is the message people get, but this is the third time i get this.. it gets very annoying to play when you keep crashing.
Also I notice, when you drop connection, or UT crash and u made something in the game and you come back, your name doesn't appear anymore on that building.


That is the crash I get on 4 way Face as well. 7 times in about half an hour.

[|uK|chiseller]

Does it happen on other maps as well? We can revert back till it's fixed..

[evilserpentman]

Does it happen on other maps as well? We can revert back till it's fixed..

I personally haven't had enough of a play to tell you for sure. I have had other messages on other maps, but I just assumed it was my rendering.
This is the first consistent message I've seen though.

[deluxeorgasm]

just noticed that sometimes my pulse gun ammo won't refill, have to drop and pick it up again.

[Higor]

Mmmhh, I think the imagedrop fixer is doing it... gonna login and see if said setting is enabled.

[Chamberly]

I don't understand. Why none of this problem happen to me, and why does none of the problem happen on my server?

And sometime I think it's what all been setup between the siege pub vs my server there is no possible way to find any of these errors b4 they came early enough for fix to catch on. Like why is some ZP file is still being loaded on the siege pub? I don't have any of the ZP file on my server and it seem to be fine...

[Higor]

Ok... it's not the imagedrop fixer... (it's disabled)

The only significant changes with FCollisionHash interactions are the traces the constructor performs to detect buildings.
And traces are queries, so they're not altering the hash... this puts in evidence the game is more broken than it looks.
The reason this got past our team's noses is because we're all playing with XC_Engine on our clients and don't crash lmfao.

I guess I'll have to disable the new constructor graphics for clients not running XC_Engine.

PD: Gonna try disabling LCWeapon's prediction to see if it helps.

[Higor]

Alright, if you keep seeing crashes revert Siege to 0018, but keep LCWeapons in 0016.
Goddamn broken collision...

[deluxeorgasm]

one more thing, after getting shieldbelt ss doesn't give me armor points

[TimTim]

Goddamn broken collision...
Yeah that shit is so annoying. There's no telling how many hours I wasted trying to debug NN a few years ago, thinking it was my fault, only to find out it was a problem with the engine itself.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

Higor Not sure if this will be relevant but I got the collision error well away from base and no builds in sight, loading up rocket launcher and as I was just about to release them it crashed, I had not switched weapon or selected the constructor.

I do agree the version needs to be reverted for now, lots of bugs have reared their heads which needs addressing, Please make sure when you upload the fixed version that either the classic constructor can be selected or the current constructor is cut in size by 3/4, although it may look cool in testing and practice, it is a hindrance in a fast flowing game especially it being forced left hand when a lot are right handed, people should not be forced into using something.

My last comment is to everyone I have seen on the server today.....
you should be ashamed of yourselves the way Higor has been bashed, yes there are bugs, yes your game time is less than you want but instantly "fuck you Higor" is disgraceful, bugs will be fixed, just like every version that has been released....this time I muted those throwing the flame abuse...... keep it up and you will get pimp slapped out of the server for one match or until you learn some fucking manners. Be grateful you still have a developer for siege you ignorant little bastards.

TimTim do you notice in your sig when they do the last "all hands in" they do it wrong/backwards? hands are meant to release going up :)

[Higor]

I don't feel bashed... at least for this version.

I kinda screwed up on not realizing something was about to turn into a crashfest due to using a third party engine plugin.
I disabled LC prediction to see if the element advancer was causing the crashes... and the crashes still occur.

So LC is fine and Siege isn't, next step is to put 0018 back and I'll take a closer look at all the changes, but i'm pretty sure it's the constructor panel trying to locate builds and players to display the info in it.
Still, this level of FCollisionHash crashes is insane, even playing Warzone with 45 bots, flying flaks, translocators and all kinds of shit... took 40 minutes to crash, this is ridiculous.

--- Updated ---

More technical details:

The crash occurs after a collision hash corruption causes a GPF, be it something attempting to modify it or query it.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the actual line check that causes it, but maybe I overlooked something very important here...

Traces are queries, movements modify the hash.
The strange thing is, that what's causing the crash are most likely the constructor line checks, which are queries.
So, if queries are crashing the engine so much... why didn't the engine crash as much earlier?

There's two chances:
- Something completely unrelated is corrupting the hash.
- Constructor querying the hash during weapon rendering is extremely unsafe as the hash hasn't cleaned up yet.
**** processing order is as follows (first on Entry level, then on game level):
*** Query sockets
*** Process connection
*** Tick collision hash
*** Update actors (player input processed during PlayerPawn update)
*** Update child actors (actors are never processed before their owners)
*** Update viewport (render occurs here) >>>>> Trace occurs here >>>>> Weapon and some other stuff is moved during rendering.
*** Rinse and repeat.

--- Updated ---

And I just realized...

This is one of the very few times where NPLoader could be put into good use by serving a native actor that replaces the hash during the current level.
I'd need someone with an older c++ compiler (or I have to install VC++6 on a virtual machine) so that clients aren't forced to use the 2015 c++ runtimes.

Gonna open a thread in UT99.org about this once Shade solves the SSL issue...

[Higor]

Maybe it's the jetpacks?
Can someone confirm if crashes occur only when someone's jetpacking?

EDIT:
Translocators are also a bit different now, as they can go through friendly builds.
Knowing what's happening on the game during the crashes is a huge plus to finding out what's going on.

[|uK|chiseller]

Server is back to 18.
I don't think there are a lot of bugs in 19, some can be found in 18 too. The positives far outweigh the negatives except for the fcollisionhash crashes. Fluke is right though, let people choose what they prefer. If it's better they will adapt, if not they won't.

Also, Dante crashed few minutes after the downgrade with a different message. No idea what GPF he got, might just be a random crash.

[Higor]

I'll re-enable LC prediction then.
Hopefully nobody will crash.

[HIGH[+]AdRiaN]

I miss that RU counter =(
but, i siege IV18 is better, minishild... only 800 ru for a invencible build, for make any SP almost indestructible without nukes, and that gives less RU to enemies? SS as a shield already was lame, in 19 we can make a SS using half RU and the other team won't gain RU shooting it.

[Janssen]

The ace crash? Seemed totally random. No jetpack. Walking down a hallway and crash. At base and crash. Anywhere and crash. As i said, if you want to re-enact it, peachcastle was worst of worst. BlueCommand was also quite bad.

Also on BlueCommand it seemed that we had serial crashing at same time. Many ppl crashing simultaneously at exactly the same time. Ie:

-Scourge
-Me
-Otherguy

altogether.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

others were jetpacking in the games I have crashed, they were not close and I could not see them, I was in a tube at the time, I remember I used to get this bug while tossing RX launcher, took ages to get around it and certainly wasn't easy pinpointing the exact cause.

The bashing was in the server like spoilt little children ranting.

You are human, mistakes are bound to happen, every piece of software on the planet has had bugs at some point that need fixing, this is no different.

[|uK|fleecey]

When i crashed, i was having a jetpack, but I also crash without it.
However, I hope the constructor is getting fixed, i hat seeing it lol..

[|uK|chiseller]

AdRiaN;99689']I miss that RU counter =(
but, i siege IV18 is better, minishild... only 800 ru for a invencible build, for make any SP almost indestructible without nukes, and that gives less RU to enemies? SS as a shield already was lame, in 19 we can make a SS using half RU and the other team won't gain RU shooting it.

Minishield shouldn't be invincible in 18 either, I changed its max health.

[Chamberly]

I didn't crash at all because I'm using XC_GameEngine. And with this, I get 50% less crashes than the rest of the population getting crashes.

It's strange that these crashes happening on the pub server and not on my dev server. Is there an extra mod incompatibility screwing it up or a different settings?

[SAM]

I didn't crash at all because I'm using XC_GameEngine. And with this, I get 50% less crashes than the rest of the population getting crashes.

It's strange that these crashes happening on the pub server and not on my dev server. Is there an extra mod incompatibility screwing it up or a different settings?

Lesson:
Dev servers never crash.
LIVE servers are always the real test!

[Chamberly]

:

Just because I don't have all the files on the pub server to make it crash don't mean you should compare the real test.
Nothing to do with server crash. I'm talking about client crash.

So the blame is on whatever mutators are installed to measure up for it somewhere.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

Just because I don't have all the files on the pub server to make it crash don't mean you should compare the real test.
Nothing to do with server crash. I'm talking about client crash.

So the blame is on whatever mutators are installed to measure up for it somewhere.

The server is worked much harder with a higher client population with constant variables that do not happen on the dev server, a dev server can never be the real test, most of the server will not have every file/add-on the the dev testers would have, same situation with configuration set ups for each player.

Don't take it personal, but Sam is correct, a dev server can never be a real test for a highly populated server where players have completely different play styles and configs. It is a hell of a lot more than just "Mutators", don't be so closed minded Chamberly.

[SAM]

[X][~FLuKE~][X][_{HoF};99763]Don't take it personal,

It seems a lot is being taken personally recently!

[Higor]

I'll take a week off before looking at this shit again.

[Shotman]

[X][~FLuKE~][X][_{HoF};99763']The server is worked much harder with a higher client population with constant variables that do not happen on the dev server, a dev server can never be the real test, most of the server will not have every file/add-on the the dev testers would have, same situation with configuration set ups for each player.

Don't take it personal, but Sam is correct, a dev server can never be a real test for a highly populated server where players have completely different play styles and configs. It is a hell of a lot more than just "Mutators", don't be so closed minded Chamberly.

I thought this would be common sense to be honest for the "developing world", the update will work if it is low traffic or small group of people testing it but once it is released to the public than you will start popping up with bugs and crashes because it is more high traffic and more things happening.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

apparently I am bashing chamberly in my last reply from the pm I just received from her, apparently what I said does not make sense and is not helpful to be bashing her in this thread.. (Even though it is dev 101 and stated it wasn't a personal thing, a simple fact involved with developing any new mod for multiple servers) I have run UT99 servers for 12 years and mod developing for several servers for 11 years....but hey, what do I know.:rolleyes:

also I am supporting Sams grey area....I am not anywhere near his "area's" thank you very much!, grey or any other colour. (Unless he is paying)


Higor Don't stress out too much over the issues, I remember the pressure all too well and it isn't nice to deal with, just remember there are still some of us that are thankful for what you do regardless of how long it takes to iron out the bugs.

[Higor]

I mean, there's still ppl running the D3DDrv on their UT's and crashing thanks to 'Ivan', unfortunately we will never get to see a proper, official engine fix for these problems so that these retards properly setup their games.
Also having to limit a mod's physics to a buggy collision hash is simply killing me.

[][X][~FLuKE~][X][]

Also having to limit a mod's physics to a buggy collision hash is simply killing me.

I remember that all too well, in the end I accepted defeat..... not helpful I know. :D

[BONZ]

I really like the recent changes, good stuff. Nerfed Minishield is good, the mid spawns are cool again, cheap damage amp will now be used. And couple of gripes, the GL with only rocket ammo completely pointless, and 400 for shield belt a little steep. Otherwise these are brilliant commonsense updates, thank you

[|uK|fleecey]

I really like the recent changes, good stuff. Nerfed Minishield is good, the mid spawns are cool again, cheap damage amp will now be used. And couple of gripes, the GL with only rocket ammo completely pointless, and 400 for shield belt a little steep. Otherwise these are brilliant commonsense updates, thank you


The GL is fixed though, spawns different ammo, emp, poison etc

[Scourge]

Question for Higor: Are the damage amp upgrades cost-effective?

For all's reference, cores have 30k hp; 20% damage = 6k damage from a direct hit.

[Moskva]

If it's the same as before, no. *** KEY WORD "IF" ***

[Higor]

I remember that game where I tried a ZP bug...
Back when I was making LCWeapons and I had decompiled ZP, I found something pretty lulzy.

Making your UT run a 5x the speed holds you down so you don't really reach other points faster... but that doesn't affect weapon fire.
So, stand in BlackRiverUltimate in mountain, make supplier, get rifle+amp and start mowing down the enemy SC at hilarious rates, cost effective indeed.
The downside is that you can't really play all doing that shit... still it was an interesting experience.

[Krikor]

From what I've tested, direct amp lvl0 nuke hit to the core its about 40 damage, lvl1 is 42 damage, lvl2 44 and like that, so its not worth to upgrade amp in my opinion, its already very strong c: (IIRC)