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  1. #1
    Moderator .seVered.]['s Avatar
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    Questionable Tactics....

    This thread is to post Screen Shot's of build's that you want an opinion on.

    For example: CHIMP on Clarion [SwS]

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    And for Builds that you think are Good:
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  2. #2
    Rampage Feralidragon's Avatar
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    So, what's the problem exactly?
    Mini-shields protect from shots, and they don't give out any ru, unlike that blue setup in your last screenshot.

    I also spammed minishields in the proper locations in the past, and that saved my team's ass more than once (specially, but not limited to: nukes).

    I worry mostly when people spam containers everywhere, those yes, are a problem.

  3. #3
    Unstoppable audiosonic's Avatar
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    Heh Ferali I remember you didn't know what the containers were actually doing a few months ago (or why buildings didn't repair themselves).

    Those mini shields inside the core have no function at all if the super container is infront of it and do give out RU. It is only leech to nukes (nuke explosions go through everything no matter how much shit you build infront of it) which can drag a team down pretty rapidly if you keep getting 3000+ ru for one nuke. Mini shields are only effective if you make them far enough from your containers and protectors, not giving out ru that easily.

  4. #4
    Rampage Feralidragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audiosonic View Post
    Heh Ferali I remember you didn't know what the containers were actually doing a few months ago (or why buildings didn't repair themselves).
    And what exactly is that supposed to mean?
    True, but that was one small detail almost no one realizes by themselves unless you're told about or read about it somewhere due to the heat of the whole match, so I have a pretty good excuse for that.
    I played siege for a long time, but I always assumed they always regenerated and the sole purpose of the container was just to have more RU capacity and as a resort to block ways, until I asked here and I was answered it repaired as well, end of story.
    Back then I didn't even have the siege source code so I couldn't possibly know through that either.

    That however doesn't make my opinion on the subject more or less valuable than any other in this forum, so that kind of statements are completely unnecessary and are a tad elitists, furthermore:
    Quote Originally Posted by audiosonic View Post
    Those mini shields inside the core have no function at all if the super container is infront of it and do give out RU. It is only leech to nukes (nuke explosions go through everything no matter how much shit you build infront of it) which can drag a team down pretty rapidly if you keep getting 3000+ ru for one nuke. Mini shields are only effective if you make them far enough from your containers and protectors, not giving out ru that easily.
    I agree some minishields have no purpose under certain situations (a shield "merged" with a container is useless), however you don't have to build containers far from the shields, and shields do not give enough RU to build a nuke, far from that.

    I also know nukes go through all the objects (I'm a modder after all, this is the way the whole damage system in the engine works, this is basic knowledge), but it doesn't mean you have to build them "far" away: a warhead can explode 1 inch from another building and not damaging it actually. How?
    Here's how nukes and splash damage truly works: when a nuke or a rocket or whatever explodes, to know if something is behind a wall or not it just uses the central location of the origin and the object to damage as reference.
    So as long the center of an object is behind a wall in a angle good enough to never getting damaged by the closest possible location of a nuke explosion, the buildings are safe and there's no leech, regardless of their collision hull.

    Taking this into account, I built a lot of minishields in the past, with quite some containers around, but always in places where the nuke couldn't hit ever as long the minishields survived. And fact is, the opponents had a hard time to build nukes to pass through it.

    Also, building a shield in front of a super container is what is "correct", so the shield can receive most damage, while the super container receives less or none at all depending on the weapon, and which can then repair the shield (this tactic was very used in Clarion and Blackriver, and it worked very well), however placing a super container in front of a shield is not totally incorrect either:
    in this specific case, whenever the nuke hits the super container, only the following buildings are affected:
    - that super container, the 3 shields behind it and the core. You do get a lot of points from the core and some from the super container, but the shields are totally harmless and don't give almost anything.
    The other 2 containers in that shot, and the tele will remain with no damage at all, thus no leeching.

    The super container can get heavy damage, but the shields will receive less damage or none at all (once again depending on the weapon), and in case the super container ends up being destroyed, the shields would keep there since the other containers are repairing it, preventing "regular" weapons to be able to attack the core effectively, a nuke would just get closer to hit and half of the times indeed damaging the other buildings (again, depending on the hit location).

    As for the first shot: 4 shields around a super mine. Leech? LOL, of course not, they're useless and a waste of RU, but they won't harm your team, they're just annoying, that's all.

    If I am wrong, please bring me hard evidence, those screenshots don't show anything in particular, and not long ago (and as a reply to your previous quite bold statement) people didn't know what bugs they were reporting either and it ended up being them making a few things up because they simply didn't understand it, and these people are the same that play siege for years.

    EDIT: As for the shot with the shields around the mine, I didn't notice the core itself. That one I agree it's dumb and will just lead to problems, but it's still not "leech", it's just a plain stupid tatic.
    The shield on the top of the core in the other one is simply useless, but brings no harm either.
    Last edited by Feralidragon; 04-18-2012 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #5
    Unstoppable audiosonic's Avatar
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    No shit that 1 inch can make a lot of difference, it's the difference between hitting a wall or an entrance.

    In theory (after all that's how you seem to look at it as a coder) a mini shield in front of a super container might seem to 'help' your super container so it doesn't take all damage, however in practice most of the times you get shot with bio/rocket, that's right, weapons with splash damage, where you would normally get 4 ru for a bio shot you now get 8. And possibly more if you build some more stuff behind it that is touching.

    But my code says it has to hit the center!
    Please, don't waste my time and test whatever you are saying out first, or voice your opinion in a better way because this has nothing to do with the center of a building or not, it just needs to be in the line of fire and it will give you RU.

    People call leech whenever they see a building in plain sight hittable from far distance, or a bunch of stuff built together in one (close ranged) area. As you can see a super mine surrounded with 4 minishields is considered a leech, why? Well first of all 1 shot will give you 20 RU +/- and it's hard to defend. Second of all it does hurt your team as the opponents can score quick RU which is bad. And finally your teammember is wasting 700x4 + his time on that shit. Now tell me again how is this not hurting your team?

  6. #6
    Rampage Feralidragon's Avatar
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    I see how this is going to be... you're dead wrong in your assumptions.

    First off you post shows how much you actually know about splash damage when you say that the 1 inch difference is between hitting a wall or an entrance, and I say to you: no, it isn't that way.
    Even in the entrance, if you hit that super container directly, between the location/center of the explosion/splash (not the center of the building) and the location/center of any of those 2 containers, there's the wall blocking that straight line, thus they're never damaged, or better yet, only 1 of them can be damaged by each nuke at a time if it explodes in a really close difficult angle between the super container and the wall, where the center of one of the containers is visible.

    The only way for a weapon to take the collision hull of a building into consideration for damage are in the following situations:
    - the weapon is hitscan (makes a trace and hits a collision hull);
    - the projectile actually "touches" it, not splash, and a projectile can only hit 1 possible building/player/whatever to explode.
    Nukes are controlled constant growing splash damage, so they never really "touch" anything at all.

    Splash damage alone never takes the collision hull as a factor to actual damage something.
    Siege gives out RU on building damage (where every building has its own RU/damage ratio), so if you don't damage, you don't get RU, simple.

    Here's a picture to clarify it:


    As you can see, in the last one the building is still visible from the splash, but it's not damaged due to the conditions explained above.
    And no, like you, I won't waste my time either proving this because it's this way it works since UEngine exists -> proven fact (ask any other developer in the game or knowledgeable player, or see the code yourself). I challenge anyone showing and proving me otherwise.

    So yeah, that fact alone plays an important role on how the location of the buildings affect gameplay and leeches. Fact is, whenever I play, I make sure containers centers were the less visible I could from any incoming splash damage, if I could hide it completely, better yet as I would avoid direct hits.

    As for the mine and shields screenshot, check my edit in my previous post (obviously you didn't notice it). However, I still don't consider that leech, 20RU? That's nothing relative the amount of time you stay there and the time it takes for you to make a strong enough shot to take that value.
    All team members win that while just staying at the supplier while eating a snack.

  7. #7
    Unstoppable audiosonic's Avatar
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    You're quoting out of context, I only said that if you build buildings on top of each other (like you said mini-shield in front of super container) will give more RU through splash damage. It's NOT HARMLESS as you say, and if you still don't understand why, or are just too y to admit then so be it I don't care dude, I just hope you're not on my team then =).

    As for your picture, it's what I said in my earlier post, it (nuke explosion) just needs to be in the line of fire.

  8. #8
    Rampage Feralidragon's Avatar
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    Oh brother.... no, I didn't quote you out of context. Reread your own post, your first and and third paragraphs.
    You're pretty much calling me y when you wrote in your posts quite y sentences yourself while I am just trying to make a point... huh?

    Anyway, back to the what the topic is about, I understand what you mean, but so far putting a super container behind and a shield on the front (very used in Blackriver to seal the base from the upper entrance) actually helps! I did that once or twice myself, but when as far as adding 2 shields on the front of the sc (2 shields outside, sc inside), and it took a really long while for the other team to blow it up, plus the only RU they would get was from 2 shields and 1 super container... not the whole set of buildings touching the super container near by, they were visible from the shockwaves, but not their center, hence my point.
    And funny you say something there, and the fact that my team already won or at least stood out a lot longer thanks to these "tactics" of mine with minishields and others in the past. I even remember Chimp being the top scorer of the winning team, lmao, so yeah, his strategies totally suck, hein?

    The RU you win depends on how much splash damage it gives, and the more distant from the splash center something is, the less damage it takes, so the RU you win is very variable and depends on a lot of factors. And as far as shields go, they never give enough to worry the entire team for another nuke like you're dramatizing for, and if they have buildings touching them, that doesn't necessarily mean they will give out RU as well since they may not get damaged (hence my point), they're buildings to be hit after all, unlike sc's nor regular ones which give a lot more RU.
    You're worrying about "peanuts", after all, you said yourself: 20RU from a charged bio, good luck in reloading it in time to repeat it in a busy match and win significant RU with it (what a warhead costs? 1.300 min and 2.000 max?), if you don't, the splash will be way smaller and the player will die in seconds if the team is competent enough.
    When I play I have to forcefully spam rockets and bio blobs against lots of minishields at a point, yet I never could win enough RU for anything valuable... how weird.

    Again, I agree it's a waste of 700 each when placed wrongly, but as far as "waste" goes, he's a player with the right to play however he wants by the rules and to spend his RU in whatever he wants as long those do not break the rules, and not how players want since it gives a slight disadvantage, he's having fun after all, I would worry mostly about the noobs that do nothing at all nor spend RU anywhere and end up being killed over and over and over, or building containers randomly around the map or all near the core, THAT yes, gives a lot of RU with a nuke, so either you make a new rule or build a siege version properly with the right strategic limitations (the latter is better for obvious reasons), or you will have to live with it, he's not doing anything extremely wrong, just like the topic says they're just weird tactics of him.

    As for team play influence, it may influence how the team plays a bit to the worse in the screenshot with 4 shields around the core, on another hand the core will get much less damage from most weapons, only specific weapons will provide a significant damage, but not much in the other screenshot (still easy to defend, to repair and most RU won will come from the core itself and sc, the shields are RU peanuts and the rest isn't even affected), and I still fail to see how that can be considered leech, but I guess our definitions of "leech" differ.

    Personally I only consider something as "leech", when the other team can get a considerable amount of "free RU" from it in a quite short time, and as long as they cannot at any given moment, it's not leech imo (they get more points by hitting a lonely container than shields, good luck in getting RU from those to build a warhead).

    I think you (and others) are simply worrying too much with something and are trying to get a way to kick Chimp for a time since he makes weird strategies you just can't understand and which give both disadvantages and advantages (the gametype is a FPS-RTS after all, what do you expect from different people?), and which won't contribute much negatively (hence being harmless), as for you it's just "wrong" and not just another way to play the game.

    EDIT: Furthermore, you launch a nuke to the best location in the Clarion screenshot and another in the blue one. The enemy will get much more RU from the blue one (the one you consider good) than the Clarion one.
    Perhaps around the same RU (more or less) between blue and the one with 4 shields and a mine near core.
    Last edited by Feralidragon; 04-18-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  9. #9
    Administrator |uK|chiseller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralidragon View Post
    Again, I agree it's a waste of 700 each when placed wrongly, but as far as "waste" goes, he's a player with the right to play however he wants by the rules and to spend his RU in whatever he wants as long those do not break the rules, and not how players want since it gives a slight disadvantage, he's having fun after all, I would worry mostly about the noobs that do nothing at all nor spend RU anywhere and end up being killed over and over and over, or building containers randomly around the map or all near the core, THAT yes, gives a lot of RU with a nuke, so either you make a new rule or build a siege version properly with the right strategic limitations (the latter is better for obvious reasons), or you will have to live with it, he's not doing anything extremely wrong, just like the topic says they're just weird tactics of him.
    This.

    Rest: tl;dr

  10. #10
    Unstoppable audiosonic's Avatar
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    Actually CHIMP thought me how to play so i would never like to see him get kicked, I'm just talking about the ideal situation here, how to build properly.

    I know it's a public game, and that's why I don't take public games that serious, after all it's just for enjoyment. But I'd like to see public games get to a higher skill level tbh, would make for more competitive games (and more fun).


    BTW with that 20 RU I mean 1 single bio shot, just 1 ammo, 3 of those equal more than a kill...

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