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Disturbed//*.
03-02-2013, 09:21 PM
I am here today saying one thing.

Bring back Old Legit Siege.

I am not just saying this, there are many others that are saying this aswell too.
I thought things would have gotten better over the years, but no.

Reason behind this: (all listed below are making siege bad)

Every since about 2 years ago, siege for me has gone down hill really fast. Im not the only one that is witnessing this. Know a days, we have A Nuke Siren, EMP, Neutron ect? Really. I remember when there was NONE of that. If i recall, i think siege is based of your team. Well if that is true, then why do we have a nuke siren.

Nuke Siren:

Telling us when a nuker is comming? That is what your team is for. Yes we all have them fancy Keybinds saying :INC Left Or Right ect, but most of us say that AFTER the siren goes off. It is basically a Bot, that is helping us with nukers, when it should be our team.

Neutron:

This is probaly one of the second worst, items i have seen with SpySuit leading as my number one.
The Neutron has to go, because one again its basically easy ways to get nuke kills. Like i said, USE YOUR TEAM, not some easy item do destroy them. Simpler Terms: use communication "His nuke is High Left, in that upper corner behind that box" Then push your team and have one person to try and take a stab at killing that nuke. Thats why we have TS and Chat(say)

EMP:

Pretty much what i said in Neutron, Use your team. Not something that disables practicly everything. Cheap way to win or gain and advantage.

Invincible Nukes:

Now, this probaly shocked you but think about it. Siege is based off a team game. Why would you be able to build a nuke in middle of combat or anywear and it does not get destroyed. Ill will be saying this all day. Use your Team, thats why you have them. Make regular nukes. Meaning have some deffenders defending your REGULAR nukes. Instead of an I Nuke where you know for a fact that it wont die. If you can not make nukes in a safe spot, then don't build them.

Spy Suit:

Self explanatory, this item man. From the start i knew this was gonna be bad. I have gotten more boosted in one map, then i have in my whole time playing siege. Once again, Team is my point. Why would use need a "suit" to change your color. Whats next? You get to remove the enemys Super Container in Clarion? I mean come on. If you need special ways or things, to play siege. Then siege is not for you.


I could go on with many more items that are affecting siege.

Please Bring back these Items (listed by catagory)
*Container
*ContainerX
*SuperContainer
*Protector
*SuperProtector
*Gaurdian
*PosionGaurdian
*MotionAlarm
*Platform
*ForceField
*Booster
*SuperBooster


*Supplier
*SupplierX
*SuperSupplier
*HealthPod
*SuperHealthPod

*SheildBelt
*Jumpboots
*Dashpad(Should be added)
*Speed
*Invis

*Warhead

*Jetpack
(No SuperJet, you can just troll around all day with speed shield, and spamm)

*Teleporter
*Translocator
*TeleNetwork
*HomeBeacon
*Camera
*Screen

*Mine
*SuperMine
*Bio
*RocketCannon
*Mortar
(May have forgoten some items. Im going off of all the XXL Series)

Idea:

Maybe instead of Super Mine, You have like a Semi Super Mine. Where It acts just like a super mine, but the Semi can be stepped on so many times, then it dies. Ex I stepp on the Semi mine 5 different Times, then it goes away, Cost 450-600.


Maybe try this list out for like a week or so, if it dont work. Then commuicate on what should be add and deleted.


With that said...



BRING US BACK OLD SIEGE, WHERE MOST OF CAME FROM!!!!

Moskva
03-02-2013, 09:32 PM
This is Badger's siege, I'm pretty sure Higor already developed an ever older siege version, the only difference is the mid spawns

Scourge
03-03-2013, 02:32 AM
Major disagree. Most of your complaints would only apply to league siege anyway, seeing as to how teamwork can be next to impossible in a public game.


Nuke Siren:

Telling us when a nuker is comming? That is what your team is for. Yes we all have them fancy Keybinds saying :INC Left Or Right ect, but most of us say that AFTER the siren goes off. It is basically a Bot, that is helping us with nukers, when it should be our team.

Teammates aren't going to help you when a nuker comes out of nowhere or keeps a low profile - And it may even be the case in such scenarios that a nuke siren won't be helpful anyway. The decision to make and upgrade a nuke siren has already had its cost adjusted to make its construction a careful consideration in lieu of offense.


Neutron:

This is probaly one of the second worst, items i have seen with SpySuit leading as my number one.
The Neutron has to go, because one again its basically easy ways to get nuke kills. Like i said, USE YOUR TEAM, not some easy item do destroy them. Simpler Terms: use communication "His nuke is High Left, in that upper corner behind that box" Then push your team and have one person to try and take a stab at killing that nuke. Thats why we have TS and Chat(say)

Neutrons exist because invincible warheads and mine-spammers exist. It already costs 5500 to effectively clear the way of mines from a spamming team, and even this may not be successful in cramped maps like BlueVember, Niven, or McSwartzly - already ridiculous for a building that has such a low cost to construct and that is instantly lethal to all but the hardiest players. In these cases, the neutron is actually too expensive.

As well, no amount of teamwork short of a constant nuke spam (and even then, not a remedy on some maps like Simplex Renovated) - already impossible on public without Rootkits stacking an entire team - will take out nukes hidden in Super Container-sealed areas like in Clarion or Atmospheric.

The problem isn't the neutron, it's the neutron's relatively short build time, the lack of player awareness of what to do with nukes or with themselves when a neutron is in build, and with map-based balance issues. Case in point, the neutron, virtually critical for a win against a competent team in McSwartzly or in Simplex, is almost useless for killing both nukes and players in Bathrooms][.


EMP:

Pretty much what i said in Neutron, Use your team. Not something that disables practicly everything. Cheap way to win or gain and advantage.

1500 RU is not a small number for an explosive that already has a bad chance of actually clearing critical mines on its own due to instant repair spam. Good luck persuading your international teammates to constantly suicide on mines to clear you a path, much less caterpillar nuke a way to the core. Again, teamwork has a good chance of not existing in pub - good players need to be allowed to use their individual knowledge and skill to shine.


Invincible Nukes:

Now, this probaly shocked you but think about it. Siege is based off a team game. Why would you be able to build a nuke in middle of combat or anywear and it does not get destroyed. Ill will be saying this all day. Use your Team, thats why you have them. Make regular nukes. Meaning have some deffenders defending your REGULAR nukes. Instead of an I Nuke where you know for a fact that it wont die. If you can not make nukes in a safe spot, then don't build them.

The main problem I have with the idea of a role-based Siege is that it would rarely work in pub even if everyone spoke the same language. I hate two things about team games; first that I have to mic up just to play on a basic level, and second that I know for a fact that I hate being stuck on defense or core repair - and so do most players, because let's face it, who likes sitting in the base all day?

There's barely any incentive to NOT leave your base unless you're a DM player or get enough RU to sate your MineCraft fix. Suppose either of those things apply to you - Even this won't be enough for core-repairing players, who need to have the engine modified so that they can repair even while UT is minimized. Anyway, the point is that if I get stuck on Nuke Defense duty, not only will I probably fail, I'll also be bored stiff. Siege isn't about being bored stiff, ergo easy fixes like invincible nukes.

I sort of agree with the main premise, provided neutrons are NOT removed - Turn "invincible" nukes into "reinforced" nukes with slightly more HP than an average warhead, but have upgrades (exclusively available during build) increase the nuke's HP. Repair rate would be slow regardless of what containers or how many are around it. This would solve the problem of "unkillable no matter what" nukes, while also affording limited protection from neutrons and lucky one-off attacks on nuke caches.

Even then, invincibles may not be so bad - Where would a siege game go besides overtime if NOBODY had nukes at the OT cutoff, assuming neutrons didn't damage the core yet did destroy all the nukes?


Spy Suit:

Self explanatory, this item man. From the start i knew this was gonna be bad. I have gotten more boosted in one map, then i have in my whole time playing siege. Once again, Team is my point. Why would use need a "suit" to change your color. Whats next? You get to remove the enemys Super Container in Clarion? I mean come on. If you need special ways or things, to play siege. Then siege is not for you.

Again, Siege is rarely a team sport anymore in public, nor should it explicitly be. The spy suit's main problems stem from its excessive value. Its price should be double or even triple the current value, and should probably cancel/refund items like invisibility, trans, and speed, much like it already does for the jetpack.

Speaking of jetpacks.

No.

Fuck you.

Don't get rid of Super Jetpacks.

|uK|Rays
03-03-2013, 04:05 AM
Isn't SW's server running old siege? Give it a try. Anyway you can't blame all of the headaches of the public server on Higor and the newer generation of siege. At least someone cares enough to continue to develop siege. Pub servers tend to be chaotic and that can be what makes them fun, but siege just has a bad chemistry going for it right now. The skill of the player base, maps, player slots of the server, team balancer, overtime eternity, and server settings all have a bigger impact on the overall experience imo. I don't think I'll be voting since I'm barely involved in UT right now, but remember that going old school won't magically fix everything.

|uK|chiseller
03-03-2013, 05:26 AM
Isn't SW's server running old siege? Give it a try. Anyway you can't blame all of the headaches of the public server on Higor and the newer generation of siege. At least someone cares enough to continue to develop siege. Pub servers tend to be chaotic and that can be what makes them fun, but siege just has a bad chemistry going for it right now. The skill of the player base, maps, player slots of the server, team balancer, overtime eternity, and server settings all have a bigger impact on the overall experience imo. I don't think I'll be voting since I'm barely involved in UT right now, but remember that going old school won't magically fix everything.

Exactly. I wish someone would finally fix the teambalancer, that would help a lot.
Though, neutron needs to go.

SAM
03-03-2013, 05:43 AM
I spoke with higor about the balancer yesterday. The last time he tried to fix it he got crucified because there were some teething issues with it. Hopefully if he starts work on it again you will all support him to make it better rather than completely demotivate him

audiosonic
03-03-2013, 07:30 AM
This is exactly what the strangelove admins did 3 to 4 years ago rofl, they went from 10/10 servers to empty in a matter of months and now nobody plays it anymore. People still play this version because they like it, nobody is forcing them to play it. Where are the people that say they prefer the old siege? Some old players that say they liked the old siege? Well guess what they aren't going to come back even if you change the version, they are gone and you gotta stick to your new audience, or else you'll end up with nothing at all.

[KINGS] #1 4eva

Moskva
03-03-2013, 12:07 PM
[KINGS]Jerry reporting for duty

BONZ
03-03-2013, 12:11 PM
ILY HIGOR

Chamberly
03-03-2013, 12:25 PM
I think the current siege is fine. Siege has been an ongoing development for awhile with support we can get and have fun.

I am already loving what's is there and couldn't find anything to change :P you get more option than just trying to nuke all the time. It is still all team work, but in pub they all try and they get to do things practically lol.

Novak
03-03-2013, 01:39 PM
I am here today saying one thing.

BRING US BACK OLD SIEGE, WHERE MOST OF CAME FROM!!!!

I'm not sure that case can be made anymore. From my understanding server traffic has picked up since siege has been modified and, if I am not mistaken, SW has an old siege server that isn't getting much play currently.

Personally, I liked the change in nuke siren range several versions back where there was a limit to its range. Take bathrooms fixed, for example. The range of the nuke siren will not reach enemy cabinet nuke room, so picking up a nuke will not automatically trigger the siren. Reducing the amount of situations where 5-8 teammates are standing at their core to take down a nuke is preferable IMO. However, having that lesser range gives players an opportunity to rush back to core to take down the nuke. Reduces dead time except for players whose assignment is to stay at core waiting for nukers. So suggestion would be to keep the expensive upgrades, but limit range. Encourage more awareness of players and teams to stop nukers without the siren.

Invincible nukes are fine. If they are built too far from base they get destroyed. Nothing wrong with having strong nukes available for use anytime in the game when tele is made, for coordinated team attack or for late-game tactics.

I think the jury is still out on spy suits. Players need to adapt to not automatically shooting their own teammates and scanning their team for potential spies. It's only a few days old, after all. Give the game a chance to adapt to its integration. That being said, I would lean on the perspectives of advanced players like Adrian and Mal who have said it is probably overpowered. Maybe not a feature of pug or match play, but a fun item for public games. It is about having fun, right?

Nothing wrong with super jetpack. With good aim, they can be sniped. If they are using transpack (super jetpack and translocator), just find where they shot the trans in their base and gg.

Killing SMs and taking advantage of the opening is about team coordination. For example, on simplex you nuke the portal SM and have a tele ready near the portal and ramp outside enemy base to rush in and do more damage to base or core before new SM is made.

Personally, I couldn't stand 4 way when it was old siege. Since it was updated to new siege, especially with mid items, it is far more enjoyable to play and prefer it at times based on my mood. In fact, I would like to see all 4 way maps updated with mid items and possibly new 4 way maps created (maybe post this on a different thread). I learned siege on the new version, and once I became acclimated to it, would usually quit playing when an old siege map got voted. Thanks to the admins for removing old siege in its entirety from public. Old siegers now have an outlet, at least on a temporary basis, with SW's server.

Shotman
03-03-2013, 01:50 PM
For spy suit there is a main difference of having fun and ending a game in 20-30 mins. I don't think your team boostng you is much fun, because like someone said people are going to shoot all of their teamates to look for the spy. It is fun for the person that has the spy, and not fun for the people that got of their nukes killed because of the person spying. Now i have to waste MORE ru for SM and mines that i didn't need to waste before. For 4-way there are tons of maps that are built but most of the maps are made for CTF. Soze they will build a sm before you use up 1000 ru for the tele and telling your team to use the tele.

'Zac
03-03-2013, 02:21 PM
i HIGHLY agree about removing the neutron, EVERY - FUCKEN - 5 SECONDS - ON - SIMPLEX - A NUETRON GOES OFF. its going unchallenged, 4 people shoot at it and doesnt die, its like onceyou see that " ENEMY NEUTRON " its like through the headset across the room and pull the mouse cord out with a cup of rage next to that TO EVERYONE

|uK|B|aZe//.
03-03-2013, 02:39 PM
i think the bigger issue here is you cant really communicate with people who are dumb as fuck+

least to say having 22 players on one server playing siege against each other is beyond dumb, as chaotic and "fun" it may be, one team just gets rolled beyond belief unlike the old days when our servers used to be 16 man servers with 8v8 or 7v7 teams. because of less slots there was no balancer at the time as teams were fighting together and using real teamwork to win games.

we dont necessarily have to change server slots the balancer just needs a lot more work, there was a time when the balancer worked on our servers with 22 people on it and more but we lost them along with other maps when our providers back then fried

Novak
03-03-2013, 02:47 PM
i HIGHLY agree about removing the neutron, EVERY - FUCKEN - 5 SECONDS - ON - SIMPLEX - A NUETRON GOES OFF. its going unchallenged, 4 people shoot at it and doesnt die, its like onceyou see that " ENEMY NEUTRON " its like through the headset across the room and pull the mouse cord out with a cup of rage next to that TO EVERYONE

Are you aware that fully charged bio, 6 rockets, or headshotting neutron with ripper or sniper will kill it very quickly? (Same with EMP.) Also, removing nukes is an option as well retrieving something like 1000-1100 ru.

Not necessarily advocating for keeping or dumping neutron/emp, am indifferent on it. There are pros and cons to both.

I remember one time on black river 2a I was on top of enemy mtn with tele, got the neutron message and saw it being made over our core from the mtn. Something like 2 or 3 headshots to the neutron killed it real quick.

|uK|Chronox
03-04-2013, 12:48 PM
I love the work done by Higor, and maybe Zac (:P) so far.. I mean they really helped keeping this game (and mod) alive.

But it is true that Siege isnt the same as before (reasons me and FIDO stopped playing).. I tought the Old Siege server would revive the old good days but it is always empty...

Want to know the reasons ?...

1st) Too many people playing. (14 max was cool back then)
2nd) Insane noob-friendly gadgets.. Like EMP, Flamethrower, Spy suit, Nuke Siren (a.k.a Shock combo spam), etc.

And maybe playing the same maps over and over with nuke spamming keeps it boring.

..Just that

Blessings.

Moko
03-04-2013, 01:42 PM
I like the nuke siren and EMP (for leech spam maps like Niven and simplex) the rest I agree with (- nukes since I don't nuke much I have no say).

The Spy suit is only good if you are nuking, other than that it's just confusing and distracting to the team you're on.

I'll give Disturbed credit for his openly bold protest, nice well layed out post. :)

Feralidragon
03-04-2013, 03:20 PM
I remember the "old" Siege being a nuke fest from day 1 (being day 1 the first time I ever played, which was at the time of a clan that is no longer, even before Rosebum hosted it), so I am not sure what people are always complaining about.
The new items were brought exactly for making the players having the clever decisions in spending RU either in teleports, EMPs, neutrons (which are still 4000RU right?) and many many other things, instead of the easy "old" decision of "well, spending my RU in a nuke"... "you know what, I am going to build a nuke"... "here's another nuke bro".... ... ... .. .. .. . . . . .

Sure, some items may be a bit OP and all, but because of a few items are so the entire gametype should go back to the stone age? That's absolutely nonsensical imo.

Anyway, the last time I played Siege I honestly tried to picture all these "huge gameplay changes" people talked about after not playing there for almost a year, and the only gameplay changes I saw is that people can't exploit glitches as much, since they were fixed... and that's it.

Mark my words: go back to the "old" where you don't have any of new items, and expect a shitload of nukes raining from the skies instead. With the siren for instance, some of the newbies still try to do something, without it the nuker can pass through the team like butter and nuke the core and still laugh at your expenses.

Just discuss any new changes and new items and why they are good or bad, and then Higor may act accordingly.
Regardless, this is just my opinion and nothing more.

SAM
03-05-2013, 01:11 PM
I've seen spy suit in action and I think the suit itself has been taken out of context. It should only be a suit to go into enemy base to identify or spot places you would be interested to attack. The moment you attack the spy suit should wear off...

utbusta
03-10-2013, 06:23 PM
I like Sams' idea! One more idea, for a noob aim'er like me, i need a weapon with a grip of splash damage like the old Bin style guns :) then I can actually hit some of you guys.

Keep up the good work, I like how things change. I am not crazy about the flame or neutron though I have used them both. For someone like me that doesn't like to nuke I either emp, neutron or give my ru away

][X][~FLuKE~][X][
03-19-2013, 07:07 AM
crumpets go very well with coffee...

Just sayin :)

Scourge
03-19-2013, 07:10 AM
[X][~FLuKE~][X][_{HoF};53977']crumpets go very well with coffee...

Just sayin :)

such a brit

][X][~FLuKE~][X][
03-19-2013, 07:33 AM
such a brit

mmmmm

1137

SAM
03-19-2013, 08:15 AM
Sainsbury crumpets are the best.

|uK|chiseller
03-19-2013, 07:28 PM
The fuck is a crumpet

Scourge
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
The fuck is a crumpet

an edible sponge

HIGH[+]AdRiaN
03-19-2013, 10:02 PM
bring the old siege is not the best solution, but i agree:

-nuke siren sucks
-neutron sucks
-emp sucks
-spy suit sucks
-super container sucks

|uK|B|aZe//.
03-21-2013, 09:51 AM
AdRiaN;54010]bring the old siege is not the best solution, but i agree:

-nuke siren sucks
-neutron sucks
-emp sucks
-spy suit sucks
-super container sucks

without them it pretty much is old siege

anyway

best solution?

16 slots for noobs.

the rest should be passworded to decent players.

|uK|kenneth
03-21-2013, 11:46 AM
16 slots for noobs.

the rest should be passworded to decent players.

sounds like a good solution to me.

|uK|Anthrax
03-21-2013, 01:06 PM
sounds like a good solution to me.

+1

Chamberly
03-21-2013, 01:21 PM
Seem like a few peoples don't like it, but when it was developed a lot of peoples play with it. I'm perfectly fine with it as it is. Maybe make an old siege server? lol... old siege is already played in PUG tho right? :P

We seem to have these stuff in use (nuke siren, etc) because this is a public server (one night stand, as an example) and there is a lot of new peoples coming in to play. Not everyone of them go on team speak and play at the same time and some just rather alias and play or what all other reason they do, they still come back to play. Otherwise, you would end up seeing a lot of peoples trying to team say all the time and then it makes it harder to maintain it when you get constant incomer who ready to spam through the door or whatever and rush to the core.

Oh and the famous line "This is a pro server, don't cry if you got your ass kicked". Pretty funny, but still accurate.

Scourge
03-21-2013, 01:25 PM
Spy suit needs to either be removed or have a substantial increase in cost. As it is, someone can just waltz into the base and fire a nuke completely undetected. At a cost of about 2550, this is often more than made up for in Simplex.

By the way, for those who hate EMPs. Maps like ShitPlex, BlueShitber, and Kanjar are the reason they exist.

|uK|B|aZe//.
03-22-2013, 07:56 PM
nuke siren/emp/neutron never existed before we can do without it now so please dont bring up shitty excuses like its because of certain maps these were brought in.

Scourge
03-22-2013, 08:00 PM
nuke siren/emp/neutron never existed before we can do without it now so please dont bring up shitty excuses like its because of certain maps these were brought in.

So you like dodging mines?

|uK|B|aZe//.
03-22-2013, 08:01 PM
you dont have to dodge mines to infiltrate an enemy base, theres plenty of other ways.

everyone seems to think just because a base is mined there is no way in.

Scourge
03-22-2013, 08:13 PM
you dont have to dodge mines to infiltrate an enemy base, theres plenty of other ways.

everyone seems to think just because a base is mined there is no way in.

Name a strategy against mine spam in BlueVember and Simplex, please. One that doesn't involve teammate communication or waiting 3 hours to build a stockpile of nukes.

Disturbed//*.
03-23-2013, 12:52 AM
Name a strategy against mine spam in BlueVember and Simplex, please. One that doesn't involve teammate communication or waiting 3 hours to build a stockpile of nukes.

But why do you need someone else do it for you aka EMP? You have 2 hands clear the mines your self. The Brain is smarter then any other. Back in the day it was either you rely on your team or your done. Now adays people rely on Emp or a Nuke Siren. How dumb is that.

Scourge
03-23-2013, 01:21 AM
But why do you need someone else do it for you aka EMP? You have 2 hands clear the mines your self. The Brain is smarter then any other. Back in the day it was either you rely on your team or your done. Now adays people rely on Emp or a Nuke Siren. How dumb is that.

My old man once told me, "If you want to be disappointed, rely on other people."

BONZ
03-23-2013, 11:05 AM
I find the emp devastating because of the lag rather than the mine clearance.

Spiderman
03-23-2013, 01:49 PM
Spy Suit, EMP, Nutron, Nuke Siren Removed. Happy to see this :)

|uK|B|aZe//.
03-24-2013, 05:24 PM
bonz its not lag its clientside framedrops meaning your pc is shit.

anyway i wont divulge my own tactics on how to clear a certain area of mines on certain maps. learn or make your own.

terminator
03-24-2013, 07:29 PM
anyway i wont divulge my own tactics on how to clear a certain area of mines on certain maps. learn or make your own.

Don't worry! U'll speak !!!!! either we have to do it by force you selfish prick!!!! :cool:

Moko
03-25-2013, 11:54 PM
My old man once told me, "If you want to be disappointed, rely on other people."
He sounds like my mother xD, only she says Rely on God instead.

Chamberly
03-26-2013, 04:06 AM
But why do you need someone else do it for you aka EMP? You have 2 hands clear the mines your self. The Brain is smarter then any other. Back in the day it was either you rely on your team or your done. Now adays people rely on Emp or a Nuke Siren. How dumb is that.

Just don't forget, this is a TDM game... lol.